To: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: Usage of cleft places and raised sumti I got translations of our current model sentences into several languages. English: I want to eat an apple. I want an apple. I try to open the door. I try the door. In Chinese, Hindi and Hebrew, "I try the door" is meaningless; in other words, this combination is not subject to sumti raising. However, "I want an apple" does mean something. For the versions which in Lojban are rendered with abstract sumti, 9 of 10 cases (counting English) are more or less clearly also rendered by explicit abstract sumti, though a tanru-like combination is also credible for some. In all of these, without any question at all in the informants' minds, x1 of the main predicate was at main level, but was also x1 of the abstraction. Thus is justified a rule in which x1 of the abstraction is copied from main level. In other words, these sentences are rendered with cleft places, never uncleft. Language results: Latin (1st year student, not very authoritative): vello edere malum (I) want (to) eat apple tempto aperire portam (I) try (to) open door Vello and tempto are members of a category of what they call "modal verbs" which expect an abstract sumti in x2. If I interpret correctly the book's explanation, "malum" is inside an explicit abstract sumti; it is not an argument of vello. Neither I nor my kid know enough Latin to tell whether or not "vello malum" or "tempto portam" mean anything. Hindi: me sabe kana chahadi hum I apple eat want (verb marker) muje sabe chahia I apple want mene darwaza kolne ki koshesh ki I door open (glue) try (glue) I wonder if this is their style of parallel diklujvo, rather than a modal verb? My informant identified "ki" as a glue word. The explanation of "me sabe kana chahadi hum" sounded more like a modal verb. "I try the door" is incomprehensible in Hindi. Hebrew: ani rotze le'exol tapuax I want to'eat apple ani rotze tapuax I want apple ani nissiti liftoax et hadelet I try to'open the door "I try the door" is incomprehensible in Hebrew. Chinese: Tone symbols: 1 - 2 / 3 | 4 ! 1-prime *. y = both schwa and "ue", sorry. |wo !yao -cr /ping |guo I want eat apple fruit |wo !yao -i *gy /ping |guo I want one (thing unit) apple fruit |wo !xe -dze !cy -kai /men I try.... go open door "go" is the motion word. "go open" is a stereotyped parallel compound that they use in this kind of phrase. Chinese has lots of these stereotyped compounds, probably to add redundant information to aid in resolving the meaning of the individual words. |wo !xe -dze -tsy *gy /men I try.... this (thing unit) door This sentence is syntactically valid but is meaningless in Chinese. -- jimc